Talk:Starfleet uniform
inaccurate Is there evidence in any canon sources to state that any 2280s division colors were discarded from the general issue of the 2320s when the undershirts had their collar removed? -- we only saw a few officers of that era: Ens. Picard, Batanides, Zweller, Jack Crusher and Ian Troi. Just because there were only three division colors seen, i can't see why this would make anyone think there weren't additional colors in the system still. After all we never saw any medical officers or cadets. I think it is unnecessarily speculative to state Starfleet made a change that there is no evidence of, besides the fact we only saw a handful of officers of the era. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 18:15, 13 May 2005 (UTC) What's this note in the insignia table about Lt JG not being in use during the TMP period? Ilia was explicitly stated on screen as being a Lt JG! --Mark Reed, 18:35 UTC, 25 Apr 2007 :Am I missing something? I don't see a note about that in this article... --OuroborosCobra talk 18:41, 25 April 2007 (UTC) "Captain's" variants Can we really say that the various uniforms worn only by captains (the TOS wraparound, the movies era "bomber jacket", the TNG suede jacket, and the First Contact vest, were all "exclusively" worn by captain's or command officers? I think that we should be more ambiguous about the language -- they werent conclusively proven to be "captain's variant uniforms" -- more along the lines of "variant uniforms... that were worn by a captain" -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 22:31, 8 May 2005 (UTC) :This may or may not add anything, but when Sloan was possing as a Starfleet officer, he also wore the "captain's variant." Aside from Sloan, captains were the only ones that wore them, so I see no reason not to call them "captain's variant uniforms." Willie 10:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC) ::Luther Sloan was posing as a Fleet Captain when he was in the uniform, therefore again it was being worn by a captain. --OuroborosCobra talk 10:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC) Yes, but if the captain was actually a commander or lieutenant commander, he might be able to wear the same uniform with different rank insignia than a captain -- meaning this would be a "commanding officer" variant rather than exclusively a "captain's" variant -- add to that, that the Movie era "capt./CO" jacket was also worn by Scotty with engineering colors, rather than command colors, when he was captain of engineering. I think singling out captains might still be unwise, as another officer on ship could theoretically wear this uniform. -- Captain M.K.B. 14:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC) So he or she would still be a captain. Remeber what Chief O'Brien said to Nog, that whoever is in command of a starship (commanding officer) would be called captain. Therefore, even when they are a different rank, it would still be a "Captain's" variant. Willie 21:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC) attention Please elaborate on this article. I merely started it because I believed an article about uniform styles was needed, but feel that others will be able to provide a lot more information, especially in light of the sort of information contained in the comments of pages like Command division. EthanRicar 17:35, 18 Nov 2004 (CET) *How's it look now? -- Josiah Rowe 07:08, 1 Jan 2005 (CET) TNG Uniform Styles The article implies that the TNG uniform styles were taken out of commision immediately upon the introduction of the DS9/VGR variations. However, characters were frequently seen on DS9 wearing the old variation. For example, Worf wore the old style when he first came aboard DS9. Sisko changed to the old style when he was reassigned to Earth. To complicate matters, in Generations the crew wore both uniforms at various times during the movie. This should be elaborated on. Redfarmer 00:01, 9 Jan 2005 (CET) :How's that for a start? --Josiah Rowe 02:04, 9 Jan 2005 (CET) :In addition, there were several Starfleet captains and admirals in the TNG era style even after the First Contact style took over, in "Rapture." -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 02:17, 9 Jan 2005 (CET) :What about the uniforms seen in All Good Things..., The Visitor and Endgame?-Excelsior 23:53, 23 Jan 2005 (CET) ::Now added, but someone else will have to put an image of those uniforms in. -- Josiah Rowe 00:50, 13 Feb 2005 (GMT) Non-canon This article has too long been a storehouse for non-canon data -- no episode references, and I believe a lot of the dates are faulty -- for example, who said that Star Trek I uniforms were rplaced by Star Trek II uniforms in 2278? That is pure speculation and has no place in Memory Alpha. The last known canonical occurrence of TMP uniforms was in 2272/2273 depending on your chronology, and the first appearance of the TWOK unis was circa 2278 on the Bozeman, but we have no clue when the actual switch took place. This article, if no relevant data exists, needs to make notes like that rather than broad generalizations passed off as fact. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 17:40, 7 Feb 2005 (CET) *I agree that the article needs episode references, and that the dates are a mix of canon and conjecture, which should be fixed. But as a matter of practicality, how do you suggest the article should be structured, if we don't do it by date? A header of "TMP uniforms" is the wrong POV. -- Josiah Rowe 18:57, 7 Feb 2005 (CET) *As the author of the date headings, I did the best I could with the dates that the uniform styles changed. It may very well be incorrect with relation between TOS and the movies, but I do believe that the dates are correct for the the switch between the TNG styles, the TNG to DS9 switch, and the DS9 to First Contact switch. If anyone has any ideas on how to clarify those earlier dates, I would love to hear them. Robert Boismier 07:38, Feb 9, 2005 (CET) * "who said that Star Trek I uniforms were rplaced by Star Trek II uniforms in 2278?" - "Cause and Effect" said so when the Bozeman emerged from the vortex from 2278 with the Star Trek II uniforms. Uniform use on Voyager There probably ought to be some comment about how the USS Voyager continued to use the colorful jumpsuits until its return to Earth, but that Alpha Quadrant Federation personnel seen on Star Trek: Voyager after 2373 were seen to wear the black-and-gray uniforms. I can't quite figure out how best to fit that information in, though. (Plus, I can't recall the first appearance of the black-and-gray uniforms on Voyager.) -- Josiah Rowe 09:15, 9 Feb 2005 (CET) : The first black/grey color uniforms was likely in "Message in a Bottle" and, um, isn't 20 edits in one night is getting to be a bit excessive? --Gvsualan 09:57, 9 Feb 2005 (CET) ::Well, when you're on a roll... :) -- Josiah Rowe 10:01, 9 Feb 2005 (CET) :"Show preview", "Show preview", "Show preview", "Show preview", "Show preview", "Show preview", "Show preview", "Show preview", "Show preview", "Show preview", "Show preview", "Show preview". :) --Gvsualan 20:36, 9 Feb 2005 (CET) ::Point taken. -- Josiah Rowe 23:00, 12 Feb 2005 (GMT) ::Well, its more of an offense when a user takes twenty edits to finish one paragraph -- this article is benefitting a lot from the extra attention. -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 22:24, 9 Feb 2005 (CET) : I know, I'm just playing. It looks good. Super A-Number-1! :) --Gvsualan 01:30, 10 Feb 2005 (CET) ::Well, I wouldn't say it's Super A-Number-1 yet, but it's getting there. :) -- Josiah Rowe 23:00, 12 Feb 2005 (GMT) Field uniform There should be some mention made of the two field uniforms seen - the Star Trek V: The Final Frontier one, and the DS9 one (seen in "Nor the Battle to the Strong and "The Siege of AR-558"). -- Michael Warren | ''Talk'' 23:06, 16 Feb 2005 (GMT) :There was also a field uniform for the Voyager uniforms -- gray jumsuits with department color stripe, very similar to the black combat uni on DS9. These came in long and short sleeves in a few syles, in "Learning Curve" , "Blood Oath" , etc. :Were there rank insignia on the "Nor the Battle to the Strong" field uniforms? - i couldnt see any on the guy wearing one in "The Siege of AR-558" .. these were described as "surface operation blacks" in the "Battle of Betazed" novel -- Captain Mike K. Bartel 02:54, 17 Feb 2005 (GMT) ::I don't think the grays on Voyager were "field uniforms"- I think they were some form of athletic wear. Note, for example, that we saw them in "Learning Curve" when Tuvok was conducting PT with the Voyager personnel he was running through his "academy", and in "Blood Fever", when the crewmembers had to do a considerable amount of spelunking and rock climbing. A short-sleeved-short-legged "field uniform" doesn't really make much sense (sleeves and legs protect against abrasions, insect bites, plant irritants, etc.), but an athletic uniform of that description makes alot of sense. Roundeyesamurai 03:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC) Dress Uniforms Couple additions to consider: It still needs information about dress uniforms (TOS, TNG & ST: Insurrection) and admirals uniforms from early TNG. --Gvsualan 07:53, 6 Mar 2005 (GMT) *Definately, the white Dress uniforms from Insurrection and Nemesis need to be mentioned, along with all the dress uniforms from all the series'. Is it also worth noting that during the first series of TNG, at least, there are men wearing dresses rather than trousers. Also, isn't Daniels from the 30th Century from Starfleet? Shouldn't his odd uniform be included in the future timeline section, along with future uniforms from episodes of VOY such as "Future's End"? zsingaya 20:35, 9 May 2005 (UTC) :Daniels didn't say that he was part of Starfleet, to the best of my recollection. Roundeyesamurai 03:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC) :RE: TNG "tube tunic"- yes, males were also seen wearing it. Likewise, if you watch the screencaps from the first two seasons, you'll see that the dress uniform "trousers" aren't trousers at all, they're black stockings. The dress jacket is a one-piece combination jacket/kilt (without pleats, of course), which tapers slightly at the waist and flares slightly at the bottom. Roundeyesamurai 03:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC) Seven of Nine Although her uniform isn't strictly Starfleet-regulation, shouldn't a reference be included in the same way as Deanna Troi's uniform? zsingaya 20:37, 9 May 2005 (UTC) The skant Should this article mention the infamous male skirt from TNG's first season? (Alphaboi867 09:02, 11 May 2005 (UTC)) *There's the up-front fact that it existed -- it last appeared on women in "Conspiracy" and "The Neutral Zone" i think and was still visible on various men almost as long into season 1's final half. Consider this my request to all of the other screencappers out there.. find those men in skirts and get me good clear pictures of their uniforms (and rank pins if possible!). meow. *Behind the scenes, this is one of the little futuristic transgender touches they added that contributed to David Gerrold's departure where he was called a "fag-lover" by Gene Roddenberry's attorney, as conflicts between licensing lawyers and staff writers prompted a shakeup of the whole franchise, alienating many of the people who were brought on by Gene Roddenberry. <-- facts like this are difficult to add because they are hearsay -- i can't add behind the scenes info like this unless if ind an instance of where i read it, and Cite my source. Star looknig through your Starlogs and biographies -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 09:25, 11 May 2005 (UTC) *I've got a picture of a "bloke-in-a-dress", although its not very clear, but its definately a man, and he's definately wearing the uniform variant from first season TNG. Actually, its an official uniform variant style, according to the star trek uniform sites on the internet. zsingaya 06:22, 12 May 2005 (UTC) *Here ya go, Encounter at Farpoint in Engineering. Image:Male-lt-skirtvar-eaf.jpg (or see right). AmdrBoltz 21:24, 25 May 2005 (UTC) Disambiguation necessary? This page contains a list, chronologically, describing each uniform style used in the history of organizations named Starfleet. Howerver, this is overlapped by an article Earth Starfleet uniform, which contains a much longer (but less formatted) description of the information here. would it benefit each individual uniform style to expand each onto its own page? this would allow expanded pictures and more descriptions of variants, bckground info and rank insignia links -- another fault of this article covered on the talk page already. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 00:05, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC) : I agree. I think a single Starfleet uniform page for listing all of the different categories and types of uniforms, perhaps with an accompanying image, linking to a whole article about that uniform type. — THOR 00:28, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC) : BTW, I love that picture immediately above. LOL, awesome. — THOR 00:29, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC) : I second, I think they need own pages; and you're welcome on the pic THOR :p --Adm Boltz =/\= 03:03, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC) Pike-era uniforms While the same command-operations-sciences uniform pattern was used in "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" as in the rest of the series, security guards wore blue in those days! Or it just seems likely. In "The Cage" there are one of two "guards" standing at the turbolift door, just like redshirts in some TOS episodes ("Journey to Babel", "And the Children Shall Lead") wearing blue shirts. Also, in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" Eddie Paskey is playing a security guard with phaser beamed down to keep an eye on Mitchell and he is wearing a blue shirt. It's just an interesting thought... --Lt. Arex User_talk:Ltarex 17:12, 3 Aug 2005 (UTC) :Personally, I don't think much thought should go into mistakes like that. I think they should just be dismissed as mistakes, and we should just assume that, even though we saw them wearing blue shirts, they were really wearing tan or red shirts. In other words, some aspects of certain episodes can be translated as non-canon if they seriously conflict with earlier or later shows.(i.e. Kirk's grave marker in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"). That is, of course, unless those contradictions are later explained (i.e. Klingon ridges). --Shran 00:42, 4 Aug 2005 (UTC) ::Or it could be that the crew standing by the elevator were serving some other duty. Possibly they were yeomen or relief for personel in other bridge positions. Or maybe they were junior officers in training observing bridge procedures. I don't think they were security guards.--GreatBear 23:47, 24 January 2006 (UTC) :::I completely disagree. These were not mistakes, so much as a concious choice in the early days of the series, many, many things had yet to be worked out. The basis of the Star Trek canon has been to consitently incorporate and explain everything that is visually depicted. This is why the interiors of Constitution class vessels still look as hokey as they do when the ships in ENT & DS9 look so much more sophisticated. These guys were clearly security, TOS made the decision to dress them in blue and finally there is no reason why security couldn't have fallen under a collective blue division color as some sort of pre-2265 organization of Starfleet divisions. (In particular, it is no different than the US Secret Service that guards the President, reporting to the Treasury division.) Besides, there is no precident for what happened to uniform styles and Federation organization between ENT and TOS. Frankly, this idea that any uniform was ever "beige" prior to ST:TMP, really bugs me and that no one wants to address the disparity between the TOS green dress uniforms and yellow appearing duty uniforms. We all know those gold appearing uniforms were actually green and the so-called beige uniforms were actually gold. If you want conceed this actuality as a mistake, then you've also got to be prepared to accept the uniform colors for what they actually were as well. Not to mention ignoring the fact that some of the old beige (true gold) uniforms had black collars added and dressed extras, most likely due to a uniform shortage and the fact that the costumes kept shrinking. Some fans will go out of their way to explain a costume discrepancy which is a simple production continuity problem, a real mistake. But a conscious use of specific uniforms (for whatever reason) must be explained in the canon. For instance, there is no reason that a production problem like using green uniforms that appeared gold can't be part of the Federation's history as well (e.g. Starfleet switched to green for Command, but the material in the duty uniforms appeared gold in photographs. So 100 years later when Starfleet returned to division specific solid color uniforms they mistakenly used gold, or preferred the way it looked instead of the traditional green). But you can't ignore it. A boom mic in frame should not be explained as some new device. The presence of a character dressed in a particular way should be. Added Details STII era As a former costume hobbiest I felt the need to add a few details to the STII era description. The jumpsuits of that era are either red collar for trainees or black for serving crew. I'm not sure about the reference to "soldiers" as a division.--GreatBear 09:48, 22 Dec 2005 (UTC) :The field jumpsuits for soldiers were seen, with their unique division color collars, in . -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk I remember the fatigue uniform in ST:V. They were 2 piece sweater/pants in khaki or dark green, and used the existing division colors on collars and straps. I was wondering about this line: '' Dark Blue – soldiers''. I find this a dubious "divison" designation and I can't recall ever seeing ground forces in this era. I don't think we saw a "soldier" until later DS9 and not again until the MACOs in Enterprise. ("Major West" in ST:IV wore the red tunic with white command divison markings). I was wondering if the original poster meant Black = Enlisted Personel. Okay I've check the link to Spikes ST page - he claims there are Marines in ST:V with dark blue division markings. I'll have to watch it again (shudder) to confirm this. If true I'd suggest changing the divison name to Marines. --GreatBear 06:20, 28 Dec 2005 (UTC) ::No, the soldiers in STV wore the khaki/drab fatigue uniforms, but with dark blue turtlenecks and sleeve straps. Although I don't remember checking Spike's site recently about this, I know that my own notes on uniforms include this variation, but I haven't rechecked if this is the film I got it from. I'd hesitate to say "marines" as this term wasn't used in the film -- although they perfectly fit the bill of "MACOs", that term wasn't used either. (by the 23rd century, are they more likely to use the 21st century term "marines" or the 22nd century term "MACOs"? I think "soldier" might be a good compromise unless we can find a more definite source naming them anything (if not mentioned in the film, script and makeup notes would make this determination). -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 04:45, 25 January 2006 (UTC) colours? I'm curious about the colours of shirts in mid-TNG era. Would a typical Chief of Security and Chief Tactical Officer wear wine or mustard? Was there a reason why Worf and Geordi changed colours? etc.--70.27.29.242 23:11, 22 January 2006 (UTC) :For the future, this question can be put on the Reference Desk, but you're new, so I'll tell ya here. Worf and Geordi switched uniforms becuase they changed jobs. Geordi was the helmsman (command division) before he became chief engineer, and Worf had an unspecified job before taking over for Tasha Yar. Also, please register on MA. Click the link in the topright corner. Its free, takes about 4 seconds, and you don't even need a name or e-mail adress.Jaz Voyager Uniform Oddities I've noticed something unusual about the Voyager-era uniforms. In several instances - most notably VOY: "Gravity" - the standard one-piece jumpsuit with a tunic that clearly fastens in the back is shown as a two-piece jacket and pants, with a tunic fastening in the front. The modifications were clearly done to allow the actors to shed the top part of their uniform and appear more "grungy", but the question is whether to address it at all. I won't weigh in and make the changes as it appears others are playing with this article; I just thought I'd throw it out there. Aholland 20:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC) :Seeing as every occasion that a Starfleet serviceperson took off a DS9/VOY uniform, it always was a two piece of pants and tunic over a gray undershirt, and was never shown to be a jumpsuit -- that it was probably not a jumpsuit. -- Captain M.K.B. 05:37, 1 April 2006 (UTC) Chief O'Brien hung his one-piece jumpsuit on a tree in "Paradise" (DS9), to use as a diversion when he was being pursued by Vinod (was that his name? the kid with the bow?). You'll see O'Brien wearing only his boxers and turtleneck when he jumped down on the kid. I remember reading somewhere that the costumers' idea with the Starfleet uniforms was that the zippers/joiners were supposed to be very small and concealed in order to create a "seamless" effect; and that to create this effect, the uniforms were made seamless, and a separate costume was made for when it had to be filmed being removed. Remember, for example, the episode "Ensign Ro" (TNG)- When the away team beams down to the Bajoran settlement, they are all wearing the standard seamless-front TNG uniforms, but then Ro takes off her jacket by opening the front (this is filmed from such an angle as to obscure the actual opening of the jacket). If anyone else remembers this, and has a source to cite it, it would probably explain the one-piece/two-piece dilemma about the DS9/VOY jumpsuits. Roundeyesamurai 03:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC) :You know, this might seem like an oversimplification, but we have a definite case of Ro opening her uniform, and, with a wave of her hand, creating a seam where none seemed to exist before -- and the uniform she was wearing had a visible zipper seam on the back. Is it possible that Starfleet uniforms could open any way you want it to? Most of the TNG, DS9, VOY "hero" uniforms opened in back, but seemed to be front openable, on occasion. And Ro's jumpsuit, like O'Brien's, has been seen splitting itself into a jacket and pants on occasion. Possibly the best explanation is that the jacket securely, but invisibly, seals itself to the pants when worn. The wearer could decide to split their jumpsuit into a two piece, like Ro did, or make sure their jacket stays attached to their pants in a one piece, as O'Brien did. This means that, no matter whether the actor was actually wearing a two piece or jumpsuit, it could be explained either way when one turns into the other. -- Captain M.K.B. 03:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC) I believe we are in agreement, Mike. I'll even do you one simpler: Maybe 400 years from now, they've figured out how to make an extremely thin zipper-type fastener that will actually fasten securely and is easily hidden. Roundeyesamurai 03:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC) One other thing that occurs to me- the prominent back zipper on the TNG uniforms might be something the audience is supposed to overlook. The production staff is limited to 20th century closures to get the actors in and out of costume. Putting it in back makes more sense than putting it in front, given that the actors are filmed from the front almost all of the time. Roundeyesamurai 06:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC) "Drive" uniforms Should we make any mention of the special uniforms (right) that were used in "Drive"? — THOR ''=/\='' 23:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC) : It could be a special small heading called Pilot Uniforms. I know they're used in a lot of fan simms. ::They are called "flight suit"s in the episode. I added them under Starfleet uniform (2366-2373)#Flight Suit. I know that it was 2377 but Voyager was still using 2371 uniforms. --Bp 10:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC) TWOK uniforms For the TWOK-GEN era uniforms, which division colors are canon besides white, yellow, gray, green and red? Most sources I look at have those five listed as the only canon colors, but you've got dark green and two shades of blue listed as if they were canon. Can I get some clarification?--Kevin W. 05:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC) :*light blue was worn by waiters at a Starfleet dining facility in Star Trek III and also by table-setters aboard the NCC-1701-A in . seems to be food service specialty... :*dark blue was worn by the assault soldiers in . military spacialty of some sort... :*no clue about the dark green. -- Captain M.K.B. 05:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC) :*Can I get some picture confirmation for the blue shades? Regrettably, I've never seen movies III-V.--Kevin W. 06:07, 8 July 2006 (UTC) 29th century uniforms How about 29th century uniforms? The crew of Relativity wore they. Shouldn't they me mentioned anywhere?